That was an interesting discussion and thanks for posting it up Paul.
1. I thought you were spot on in your criticism of Trump's war on Iran and it was odd hearing the other man saying how 'the left supports the regime' when you were clearly saying that you are on the left, that you oppose the regime and that you want it overthrown - but crucially that it needs to be overthrown by the Iranian people and not by external war.
Surely the best help we can give Iranian people is to provide serious material support to the oppositionists to assist them in their own struggle. Not bomb them.
2. Reducing trial by jury is a terrible idea and I strongly agreed with everyone in their criticisms on that subject.
David Lammy seems to be arguing that reducing the right to trial by jury is primarily to tackled the backlog of cases. But if our law courts are facing a backlog of cases then the answer is to resource the legal system better. We wouldn't close down the NHS because of waiting lists would we? He does seem and extremely ignorant man, making a foolish argument.
3. Digital ID is a horrible prospect and will only benefit the big companies who will provide the tech for it. (And of course those who will be getting kickbacks from those companies.
It will not impact on illegal migration - it will actually help the people who run these illegal migration rackets as they have IT skills and will easily be able to fake digital IDs. By contrast, law-abiding citizens who struggle with tech will lose out.
If we are serious about stopping the small boat people-trafficking, the only serious way to do this is by deploying the Royal Navy to track, intercept and seize the vessels and return the passengers to their shore of departure. Not with cruelty, but being firm but fair.
4. On the Islamophobia regulations, again, I agree with what was said in the discussion. There are already laws against those who would discriminate or stir up hatred on grounds of religion, so there is no need for these regulations at all. Yes the regulations will stifle free speech and will seem like a blasphemy law.
Meanwhile, our government could be (and should be) focussing efforts on rebuilding our manufacturing sector, building houses, renewing our infrastructure, teaching trade skills to our youngsters...etc...
I wanted to answer a couple of your points not to be an arse but just to give you a bit more info than I think you have.
Your first point.
Paul is but one person, the left do support that regime, clearly they do by us not supporting our longest strongest and best allies. trust me Saudi isn't.
The people in Iran wwere asking for help, easy searches on X will show you that, not the British Bullshit Company news. When a regime starts killing it's own people there are laws to intervene. When you have a country that has a proven record of funding global terrosim and are desperately trying to get nuclear capability thats reason enough. The fact that Iran has sent missiles out indescriminately, even hitting RAF Aakrotiri shows they simply do not care where they land or who they kill. Why did they do this, to get other countries to pressurise Trump to stop because they cannot hit the US directly.
In order to help the people you need to take out that which is opperssing them first, we're two weeks in and already this is becoming the new Pro Pali in some quarters. Tho9se marches and protests were disgusting so are any in support of a regime that has murdered it's own people. It should speak volumes to opeople when Israelies and Persons celebrated together when the Iranian leadership was decimated. How this palys out, know one knows.
As for our own shores and the dinghies, I completely agree. See my post above. I spent 30 years in the Royal Navy defending this island, inclduing Patrols protecting our shipping in the Staroits of Hormus against the lunatics in Iran. So how do you think people such as myself and others feel about these people just rocking up on our beqaches and being given more handouts than my mother who survived WW2! It's sickening and angers the fuck out of me.
You put the RN in the channel with clear ROE, definitive direction to get the boats gone and the problem stops in a fortnight. I've done simialr in the Adriatic and thats larger, it's not difficult. However, in order to do that you need to ensure that any missaps by accident, drownings, no one faces prosecution. You need toi ensure they are not brought here but are locked up and got rid of straight away. Us in the ECHR kicks that one into touch, well done Blair and his witch of a wife.
But most importantly you need a Gov with a backbone to support our military, not a PM who writes a law so that terrosist families can prosecute our people decades after they were cleared of any wrong doing. That's us truly fucked then becauiwse this PM and his mate Hermer would sell opur boiys and girls down the drain in a heartbeat, oh year hes done that already. They could've been stopped years ago!
As for the boats themselves ask yourself why has nothing been done to stop them, our SF the beast in the worlkd could take them smugglers out in a heartbeat! But we've a Gov who's done nothing! Who is the true Leaders of this country!
Thanks for your points Andrew. Also thank you for your service in the Royal Navy.
Like Paul, I'm also on the left and I take a similar viewpoint to his.
Incidentally, a couple of years ago, while out in central London I encountered by chance a huge protest march by ex-pat Iranians against the regime and in support of the large-scale uprising taking place at that time (December 2022).
That wave of unrest had been sparked by the police murder of Masha Amini, a 22-year-old woman beaten to death by Iran's so-called 'morality police' for not wearing her headscarf.
It was an extremely lively and determined demonstration and I spoke with some of the people on it who talked about their families back in Iran and what they were going through. Massively moving experience.
Back then, they were asking and urging our Government to give material support to their uprising and to take steps against the regime, but they didn't call for bombing of their homeland. I really don't think the people opposing the regime today want this to happen either. But what we should have done then - and should do now - is give serious material backing to the Iranian oppositionists to help them seize power for the people.
And I'm sorry, but the USA is not exactly a great ally of the UK over the years. It's more often been a one-way relationship and I think Keir Starmer has called it about right on this issue to be honest. As has Paul too.
On the question of deploying the Royal Navy, I wouldn't bring any of the small-boat passengers into the UK. The deployment should be 100% to return them to their shore of departure. Not with cruelty, but with a firm but fair approach. And it would actually save many lives to do this. It would also quickly stop it happening as news would soon spread that this is no longer a viable route and nobody would pay the traffickers any more.
Sorry, but who does call for bombing of their homeland? So what exactly does 'material support' amount to against a regieme that is more than happy to open up with machine guns on theiir own people? A few thousand SWP placards maybe?
The only way to help those people is to remove that which is supressing them with force and violence, the regime in Iran simply do not accept the word democracy. That's why they've been in power since 1979. There is only one way to reduce the regiemes hold is to remove their strength, you dont do that with a phone call.
Do you know what the IRGC's origins were? A force to stop regular troops from deserting during the Iran/Iraq war. Nice. Then shocker, they became ultra powerful, that's why that country is rulled along two lines, theocracy and militarily.
As for your comments regarding the US as allies. In 1945 General Mongomery complained profusely to Churchill when his show case crossing of the Rhine with massed media present was kicked into touch when Patton crossed unopposed the night before. Montgomery wanted him courtmarshalled and sent home by Eisenhower. Didn't happen because at that moment Churchills biographer stated that Churchill finally realised that the UK was not the big force in global politics, the US was. the fact that when they entered the war they took control was the start of Britains decline.
So yes they are the senior partner who dictates terms, they provide more than anyone to NATO, always have. We turn up to a conflict with 6 ships they turn up with around 80. Balkans, Iraq, Afghan, who provided more? Who lost more!
Starmer is a coward, he was even reluctant to provide prootection to our own base in Cyprus until the French, the bloody French offered to do it for him! Embarrassing. You do not have to drop bombs to provide assisstance to our strongest ally; airbases for launching, protection of our Gulf allies, shipping lanes, merchant 'neutral' ships, refuelling. I doubt Starmer has the backbone to offer up a flask of coffee and a sandwich.
Was you aware that Sandhurst, our military college, has refused to take any IDF officers? Why? Why would you turn down the opportunity to learn from one of the most etchnically advanced military's in the world? Why would you not want to learn from the foremost leaders in urban warfare in the world? Because you Governement are too scared to upset a minority that has them by the scruff of the neck.
Our Governement, and yes the one before, are rotten to the core. But Starmer, old two tier Kier, Mr Charisma U-turn has done more damage to this country in 18 months than any before him.
You and I will never agree, that's fine, but Starmers approach to everything is not only dangerous it's trecherous. What was it he said recently, "Muslims are the face of modern Britain!" Disgusting! I didn't risk my life in 5 war zones for that bollox, neother did the Veterans who Starmer and his mate Hermer have hounded through courts time and again!
I'm only glad that at the moment on a basic level our personnel in the military still hold ties with their US counterparts, but how long will that continue?
1. Material support could be arms to oppositionist Iranian forces. For example those committed to bringing power back to the people. Sorry, but 'a few SWP placards' would be of no use to them at all.
2. The USA kept out of WWII until they themselves were attacked. We had already defeated Germany's attempts to invade the year before. It was the USSR which, if we're quoting Winston Churchill, 'tore the guts out of the Germany military machine' and 'inflicted upon the Germans losses far greater than those of all the other Allies put together.'
3. Keir Starmer has called this one correctly in my opinion, erring on the side of caution with the hindsight of the Iraq and Libya disasters.
4. I wasn't aware of the Sandhurst/IDF issue you raise. It surprises me to hear of that to be honest.
5. The Prime Minister who did the most damage to the UK is not Keir Starmer. For me, that would be a close call between Margaret Thatcher and Neville Chamberlain.
Really enjoyed this debate. A couple of takeaways; “Our government can’t control our borders, so we have to suffer ID cards to make up for it” and “the administration of our Courts system is failing so we lose an ancient rite of trial by jury” then “Starmer as a human rights lawyer cares more about the ECHR of 1950 than the Magna Carta of 1215”. Thank you Paul. God knows why you’re even bothering to try to reform these lefty idiots who have infested the Labour Party.
Yes all very interesting, however, how old were you in 1987 Paul? Personally I was 17 and in Sept of 1987 I sailed onbard HMS Brazen from Plymouth (Guz) on my first active deployment, where too? Gulf of Oman (GOO), why, because the fanatical regime of Iran was blowing up tankers, oil rigs threatening shipping and all nations interests going through the Straits. I saw them, rigs and ships burnt out, ones on fire, missile holes in their sides. I went there just after the USS Stark was hit, only person to see the missile launch, the Starboard missile sight operator my job at the time, the same. The Straits, every inch of sea covered by Silkworm missile sites, google them also, ship killers. At 17 when you hear the warning alarms that your ship has just been target acquired by those sites you near shit yourself. Especially when a messmate got sunk on HMS Antelope during the falklamnds conflict, at the same age as you!
Those patrols were called Armilla, people can google them if they like. Not old enough to vote or drink, legally, but die because of Islamist nutters. So what is happening now is not new. the only difference we had ships with air defence capability to conduct escort duties round the clock 12 months a year. 3 were in theatre at any one time from around 1984 to 95 ish.
You say this war is ill thought out. So the Iraq War which was a blatant like that claimed many of our troops lives, not least of all becasue they were sent to war with crap equipment, was just? That was the branchild of Blair. Afghan, intially to get Osama, lasted 20 odd years, how many deaths? Yet here we are 2 weeks in and already certain quarters are desperate to see the US and Israel fail.
As for legallity, every conflict zone I have ever been in in my 30 years Royal Navy career was because of Islamist nutters, not Christians, Hindus, Buddhist, Islamist. Iran has funded global terrorism from Africa, every kept quiet about the genocide in Sudan and other places, Boko Haram, Cape Horm Pirates, yup I've chased them also. Literally across the globe where Islamist have conducted terroism the regime in Iran has been at it's core. Attacks across Europe including the Manchester arena and heres people protesting in support of Iran in Westminster, sick!
People need to understand that the US and Iran have been at war since the late 70's, this isn't new. Either by proxies or direct, bombing the French and US bases in Beirut, USS Cole and Stark. So is this war legal, absolutely yes. As for the rule of law when did Iran ever apply that? Did they when they opened fire on their own people!
Now we get onto that coward Starmer, the fact that we don't have any capability to assist in the GOO helps him out. But it also shows how weak we have become, Russia China and North Korea must be pissing themselves. Too ready to crty legaility instead of backing our best strongest longest and closest allies. Utter traitor! To busy currying favour with his Muslim Brotherhood backers to do what is right for this country.
What people should be more concerned with is what has happened to this country, especially in the last 18 months, what was it he said recently, "Muslims are the face of modern Britain", Tells you all you need to know about where this country is heading. The man is a coward, not where his Ukranian rent boys are concerned, that went very quiet very very quickly!
Anyone wants to really see the state of our military, take a dockyard tour boat of Pompey dockyard, that and Guz used to be packed with warships, including those out on deployments lieterally around the world. Both are now ghost towns! We can't even defend our own shores from the 5th column coming in weekly by dinghy, although that is Gov aided!
That was an interesting discussion and thanks for posting it up Paul.
1. I thought you were spot on in your criticism of Trump's war on Iran and it was odd hearing the other man saying how 'the left supports the regime' when you were clearly saying that you are on the left, that you oppose the regime and that you want it overthrown - but crucially that it needs to be overthrown by the Iranian people and not by external war.
Surely the best help we can give Iranian people is to provide serious material support to the oppositionists to assist them in their own struggle. Not bomb them.
2. Reducing trial by jury is a terrible idea and I strongly agreed with everyone in their criticisms on that subject.
David Lammy seems to be arguing that reducing the right to trial by jury is primarily to tackled the backlog of cases. But if our law courts are facing a backlog of cases then the answer is to resource the legal system better. We wouldn't close down the NHS because of waiting lists would we? He does seem and extremely ignorant man, making a foolish argument.
3. Digital ID is a horrible prospect and will only benefit the big companies who will provide the tech for it. (And of course those who will be getting kickbacks from those companies.
It will not impact on illegal migration - it will actually help the people who run these illegal migration rackets as they have IT skills and will easily be able to fake digital IDs. By contrast, law-abiding citizens who struggle with tech will lose out.
If we are serious about stopping the small boat people-trafficking, the only serious way to do this is by deploying the Royal Navy to track, intercept and seize the vessels and return the passengers to their shore of departure. Not with cruelty, but being firm but fair.
4. On the Islamophobia regulations, again, I agree with what was said in the discussion. There are already laws against those who would discriminate or stir up hatred on grounds of religion, so there is no need for these regulations at all. Yes the regulations will stifle free speech and will seem like a blasphemy law.
Meanwhile, our government could be (and should be) focussing efforts on rebuilding our manufacturing sector, building houses, renewing our infrastructure, teaching trade skills to our youngsters...etc...
I wanted to answer a couple of your points not to be an arse but just to give you a bit more info than I think you have.
Your first point.
Paul is but one person, the left do support that regime, clearly they do by us not supporting our longest strongest and best allies. trust me Saudi isn't.
The people in Iran wwere asking for help, easy searches on X will show you that, not the British Bullshit Company news. When a regime starts killing it's own people there are laws to intervene. When you have a country that has a proven record of funding global terrosim and are desperately trying to get nuclear capability thats reason enough. The fact that Iran has sent missiles out indescriminately, even hitting RAF Aakrotiri shows they simply do not care where they land or who they kill. Why did they do this, to get other countries to pressurise Trump to stop because they cannot hit the US directly.
In order to help the people you need to take out that which is opperssing them first, we're two weeks in and already this is becoming the new Pro Pali in some quarters. Tho9se marches and protests were disgusting so are any in support of a regime that has murdered it's own people. It should speak volumes to opeople when Israelies and Persons celebrated together when the Iranian leadership was decimated. How this palys out, know one knows.
As for our own shores and the dinghies, I completely agree. See my post above. I spent 30 years in the Royal Navy defending this island, inclduing Patrols protecting our shipping in the Staroits of Hormus against the lunatics in Iran. So how do you think people such as myself and others feel about these people just rocking up on our beqaches and being given more handouts than my mother who survived WW2! It's sickening and angers the fuck out of me.
You put the RN in the channel with clear ROE, definitive direction to get the boats gone and the problem stops in a fortnight. I've done simialr in the Adriatic and thats larger, it's not difficult. However, in order to do that you need to ensure that any missaps by accident, drownings, no one faces prosecution. You need toi ensure they are not brought here but are locked up and got rid of straight away. Us in the ECHR kicks that one into touch, well done Blair and his witch of a wife.
But most importantly you need a Gov with a backbone to support our military, not a PM who writes a law so that terrosist families can prosecute our people decades after they were cleared of any wrong doing. That's us truly fucked then becauiwse this PM and his mate Hermer would sell opur boiys and girls down the drain in a heartbeat, oh year hes done that already. They could've been stopped years ago!
As for the boats themselves ask yourself why has nothing been done to stop them, our SF the beast in the worlkd could take them smugglers out in a heartbeat! But we've a Gov who's done nothing! Who is the true Leaders of this country!
Thanks for your points Andrew. Also thank you for your service in the Royal Navy.
Like Paul, I'm also on the left and I take a similar viewpoint to his.
Incidentally, a couple of years ago, while out in central London I encountered by chance a huge protest march by ex-pat Iranians against the regime and in support of the large-scale uprising taking place at that time (December 2022).
That wave of unrest had been sparked by the police murder of Masha Amini, a 22-year-old woman beaten to death by Iran's so-called 'morality police' for not wearing her headscarf.
It was an extremely lively and determined demonstration and I spoke with some of the people on it who talked about their families back in Iran and what they were going through. Massively moving experience.
Back then, they were asking and urging our Government to give material support to their uprising and to take steps against the regime, but they didn't call for bombing of their homeland. I really don't think the people opposing the regime today want this to happen either. But what we should have done then - and should do now - is give serious material backing to the Iranian oppositionists to help them seize power for the people.
And I'm sorry, but the USA is not exactly a great ally of the UK over the years. It's more often been a one-way relationship and I think Keir Starmer has called it about right on this issue to be honest. As has Paul too.
On the question of deploying the Royal Navy, I wouldn't bring any of the small-boat passengers into the UK. The deployment should be 100% to return them to their shore of departure. Not with cruelty, but with a firm but fair approach. And it would actually save many lives to do this. It would also quickly stop it happening as news would soon spread that this is no longer a viable route and nobody would pay the traffickers any more.
Sorry, but who does call for bombing of their homeland? So what exactly does 'material support' amount to against a regieme that is more than happy to open up with machine guns on theiir own people? A few thousand SWP placards maybe?
The only way to help those people is to remove that which is supressing them with force and violence, the regime in Iran simply do not accept the word democracy. That's why they've been in power since 1979. There is only one way to reduce the regiemes hold is to remove their strength, you dont do that with a phone call.
Do you know what the IRGC's origins were? A force to stop regular troops from deserting during the Iran/Iraq war. Nice. Then shocker, they became ultra powerful, that's why that country is rulled along two lines, theocracy and militarily.
As for your comments regarding the US as allies. In 1945 General Mongomery complained profusely to Churchill when his show case crossing of the Rhine with massed media present was kicked into touch when Patton crossed unopposed the night before. Montgomery wanted him courtmarshalled and sent home by Eisenhower. Didn't happen because at that moment Churchills biographer stated that Churchill finally realised that the UK was not the big force in global politics, the US was. the fact that when they entered the war they took control was the start of Britains decline.
So yes they are the senior partner who dictates terms, they provide more than anyone to NATO, always have. We turn up to a conflict with 6 ships they turn up with around 80. Balkans, Iraq, Afghan, who provided more? Who lost more!
Starmer is a coward, he was even reluctant to provide prootection to our own base in Cyprus until the French, the bloody French offered to do it for him! Embarrassing. You do not have to drop bombs to provide assisstance to our strongest ally; airbases for launching, protection of our Gulf allies, shipping lanes, merchant 'neutral' ships, refuelling. I doubt Starmer has the backbone to offer up a flask of coffee and a sandwich.
Was you aware that Sandhurst, our military college, has refused to take any IDF officers? Why? Why would you turn down the opportunity to learn from one of the most etchnically advanced military's in the world? Why would you not want to learn from the foremost leaders in urban warfare in the world? Because you Governement are too scared to upset a minority that has them by the scruff of the neck.
Our Governement, and yes the one before, are rotten to the core. But Starmer, old two tier Kier, Mr Charisma U-turn has done more damage to this country in 18 months than any before him.
You and I will never agree, that's fine, but Starmers approach to everything is not only dangerous it's trecherous. What was it he said recently, "Muslims are the face of modern Britain!" Disgusting! I didn't risk my life in 5 war zones for that bollox, neother did the Veterans who Starmer and his mate Hermer have hounded through courts time and again!
I'm only glad that at the moment on a basic level our personnel in the military still hold ties with their US counterparts, but how long will that continue?
Hi again,
1. Material support could be arms to oppositionist Iranian forces. For example those committed to bringing power back to the people. Sorry, but 'a few SWP placards' would be of no use to them at all.
2. The USA kept out of WWII until they themselves were attacked. We had already defeated Germany's attempts to invade the year before. It was the USSR which, if we're quoting Winston Churchill, 'tore the guts out of the Germany military machine' and 'inflicted upon the Germans losses far greater than those of all the other Allies put together.'
3. Keir Starmer has called this one correctly in my opinion, erring on the side of caution with the hindsight of the Iraq and Libya disasters.
4. I wasn't aware of the Sandhurst/IDF issue you raise. It surprises me to hear of that to be honest.
5. The Prime Minister who did the most damage to the UK is not Keir Starmer. For me, that would be a close call between Margaret Thatcher and Neville Chamberlain.
Really enjoyed this debate. A couple of takeaways; “Our government can’t control our borders, so we have to suffer ID cards to make up for it” and “the administration of our Courts system is failing so we lose an ancient rite of trial by jury” then “Starmer as a human rights lawyer cares more about the ECHR of 1950 than the Magna Carta of 1215”. Thank you Paul. God knows why you’re even bothering to try to reform these lefty idiots who have infested the Labour Party.
Yes all very interesting, however, how old were you in 1987 Paul? Personally I was 17 and in Sept of 1987 I sailed onbard HMS Brazen from Plymouth (Guz) on my first active deployment, where too? Gulf of Oman (GOO), why, because the fanatical regime of Iran was blowing up tankers, oil rigs threatening shipping and all nations interests going through the Straits. I saw them, rigs and ships burnt out, ones on fire, missile holes in their sides. I went there just after the USS Stark was hit, only person to see the missile launch, the Starboard missile sight operator my job at the time, the same. The Straits, every inch of sea covered by Silkworm missile sites, google them also, ship killers. At 17 when you hear the warning alarms that your ship has just been target acquired by those sites you near shit yourself. Especially when a messmate got sunk on HMS Antelope during the falklamnds conflict, at the same age as you!
Those patrols were called Armilla, people can google them if they like. Not old enough to vote or drink, legally, but die because of Islamist nutters. So what is happening now is not new. the only difference we had ships with air defence capability to conduct escort duties round the clock 12 months a year. 3 were in theatre at any one time from around 1984 to 95 ish.
You say this war is ill thought out. So the Iraq War which was a blatant like that claimed many of our troops lives, not least of all becasue they were sent to war with crap equipment, was just? That was the branchild of Blair. Afghan, intially to get Osama, lasted 20 odd years, how many deaths? Yet here we are 2 weeks in and already certain quarters are desperate to see the US and Israel fail.
As for legallity, every conflict zone I have ever been in in my 30 years Royal Navy career was because of Islamist nutters, not Christians, Hindus, Buddhist, Islamist. Iran has funded global terrorism from Africa, every kept quiet about the genocide in Sudan and other places, Boko Haram, Cape Horm Pirates, yup I've chased them also. Literally across the globe where Islamist have conducted terroism the regime in Iran has been at it's core. Attacks across Europe including the Manchester arena and heres people protesting in support of Iran in Westminster, sick!
People need to understand that the US and Iran have been at war since the late 70's, this isn't new. Either by proxies or direct, bombing the French and US bases in Beirut, USS Cole and Stark. So is this war legal, absolutely yes. As for the rule of law when did Iran ever apply that? Did they when they opened fire on their own people!
Now we get onto that coward Starmer, the fact that we don't have any capability to assist in the GOO helps him out. But it also shows how weak we have become, Russia China and North Korea must be pissing themselves. Too ready to crty legaility instead of backing our best strongest longest and closest allies. Utter traitor! To busy currying favour with his Muslim Brotherhood backers to do what is right for this country.
What people should be more concerned with is what has happened to this country, especially in the last 18 months, what was it he said recently, "Muslims are the face of modern Britain", Tells you all you need to know about where this country is heading. The man is a coward, not where his Ukranian rent boys are concerned, that went very quiet very very quickly!
Anyone wants to really see the state of our military, take a dockyard tour boat of Pompey dockyard, that and Guz used to be packed with warships, including those out on deployments lieterally around the world. Both are now ghost towns! We can't even defend our own shores from the 5th column coming in weekly by dinghy, although that is Gov aided!